CORONA VIRUS

Interesting...Spain put on quarantine for returning holidaymakers straight away, after cases rose to "over 900" on Friday. UK polled 767,768 and 769 new cases for the last 3 consecutive days.
any folk who just have to go on holiday wi nae valid travel insurance an in spite of the real risks are fkkn stupid.........common sense would say that things could turn on a sixpence but for some folk they are in denial.........?
 
Another boch up.....................
This Tory lot continue to be a shambles.....................
Little or no thought in the actions they take...............
contrast with Germany for example
If the track and trace was `world beating` there would be no problem as people could be tested as they land back from hols but at present the system is barely adequate...
Now they have two months or so to plan extensively for the winter rise in covid cases but what is happening?.....................they are going on hols !!!!
How did we ever get into this mess...
Three men Boris Dom and Gove(useless themselves) with a few talentless hangers on yes men run the country..............
Democracy........
@gaz255 believe it or not there is a lot of work going on to try and plan for the winter, the Academy of Medical Sciences was commissioned and recently published a document that was presented at a SAGE meeting. Here's the executive summary "...
July and August must be a period of intense preparation for our reasonable worst-case scenario for health in the winter that we set out in this report, including a resurgence of COVID-19, which might be greater than that seen in the spring. The assumptions that we have made should be tested as new evidence emerges (including analysis of the evidence from the first wave) to enable prevention and mitigation strategies to be adapted and refined. Mitigation strategies should not pose further disadvantage to the most vulnerable in society or the highest risk patients or communities. To maximise their effectiveness (and to ensure they do not exacerbate inequalities), preparations for winter must be informed by engagement with patients, carers, public and healthcare professionals (as we have benefitted from in this report); and, whenever possible, be developed through co-production. Implementation of prevention and mitigation strategies requires enhanced coordination, collaboration and data sharing between central and local initiatives..."
This planning is made more difficult by e.g. a section of the public actively agitating against masks under the banner that it's a conspiracy to strip us of our freedoms; politicising of every action - as @Dirrtyfucker said above Whatever the government do, some people will always find fault.
 
@gaz255 believe it or not there is a lot of work going on to try and plan for the winter, the Academy of Medical Sciences was commissioned and recently published a document that was presented at a SAGE meeting. Here's the executive summary "...
July and August must be a period of intense preparation for our reasonable worst-case scenario for health in the winter that we set out in this report, including a resurgence of COVID-19, which might be greater than that seen in the spring. The assumptions that we have made should be tested as new evidence emerges (including analysis of the evidence from the first wave) to enable prevention and mitigation strategies to be adapted and refined. Mitigation strategies should not pose further disadvantage to the most vulnerable in society or the highest risk patients or communities. To maximise their effectiveness (and to ensure they do not exacerbate inequalities), preparations for winter must be informed by engagement with patients, carers, public and healthcare professionals (as we have benefitted from in this report); and, whenever possible, be developed through co-production. Implementation of prevention and mitigation strategies requires enhanced coordination, collaboration and data sharing between central and local initiatives..."
This planning is made more difficult by e.g. a section of the public actively agitating against masks under the banner that it's a conspiracy to strip us of our freedoms; politicising of every action - as @Dirrtyfucker said above Whatever the government do, some people will always find fault.
Only a week or 2 ago, government had ordered 30 million flu jabs, for mass vaccination for the over 50s. Problem is, for some it’s just a case of political myopia, when it suits them and the whinge(Rama) continues:rolleyes:. One real negative will be, if track and trace aren’t tracing and isolating at least 90-95% of contacts by winter.
 
@gaz255 believe it or not there is a lot of work going on to try and plan for the winter, the Academy of Medical Sciences was commissioned and recently published a document that was presented at a SAGE meeting. Here's the executive summary "...
July and August must be a period of intense preparation for our reasonable worst-case scenario for health in the winter that we set out in this report, including a resurgence of COVID-19, which might be greater than that seen in the spring. The assumptions that we have made should be tested as new evidence emerges (including analysis of the evidence from the first wave) to enable prevention and mitigation strategies to be adapted and refined. Mitigation strategies should not pose further disadvantage to the most vulnerable in society or the highest risk patients or communities. To maximise their effectiveness (and to ensure they do not exacerbate inequalities), preparations for winter must be informed by engagement with patients, carers, public and healthcare professionals (as we have benefitted from in this report); and, whenever possible, be developed through co-production. Implementation of prevention and mitigation strategies requires enhanced coordination, collaboration and data sharing between central and local initiatives..."
This planning is made more difficult by e.g. a section of the public actively agitating against masks under the banner that it's a conspiracy to strip us of our freedoms; politicising of every action - as @Dirrtyfucker said above Whatever the government do, some people will always find fault.
Yes well aware of the fact that there are lots of groups warning of the possible problems .That`s not the problem......the problem is the Tory nomarks .....will they take the advice???...or in the usual arrogant manner do what suits them???
Track record so far is crap..........hence.....
No body trusts the judgements they are making eg the bovver re Spain...........
 
The stupid travel reporter on This MORNING was giving people tips on loop holes on how to avoid quaratine when coming back from Spain not very wise now,
If people chose to go on holiday during a pandemic they should have to self isolate whencreturing if they dont want to it then dont go away simple.
its so simple ne?.......
 
People always point to the exemplar nations in this pandemic, when referencing what we do over here. As far as I know, New Zealand one of the exemplar nations, all UK nations travelling there have to quarantine for 2 weeks. They don’t say, it only applies to those coming from Leicester and Blackburn? Or if you’re coming from London, you don’t have to quarantine. UK government puts a blanket quarantine on those arriving from Spain and the ”doomsters” are whinging , that the blanket policy is a blunt instrument, the infection levels are lower in the Spanish Islands :dash::dash:

Country has been demanding expediency, they now have it and we are still whinging:lol:
 
People always point to the exemplar nations in this pandemic, when referencing what we do over here. As far as I know, New Zealand one of the exemplar nations, all UK nations travelling there have to quarantine for 2 weeks. They don’t say, it only applies to those coming from Leicester and Blackburn? Or if you’re coming from London, you don’t have to quarantine. UK government puts a blanket quarantine on those arriving from Spain and the ”doomsters” are whinging , that the blanket policy is a blunt instrument, the infection levels are lower in the Spanish Islands :dash::dash:

Country has been demanding expediency, they now have it and we are still whinging:lol:
thats folk one minute black is white the next white is black........?........Im getting bored wi the no so much newscasters....?
 
People always point to the exemplar nations in this pandemic, when referencing what we do over here. As far as I know, New Zealand one of the exemplar nations, all UK nations travelling there have to quarantine for 2 weeks. They don’t say, it only applies to those coming from Leicester and Blackburn? Or if you’re coming from London, you don’t have to quarantine. UK government puts a blanket quarantine on those arriving from Spain and the ”doomsters” are whinging , that the blanket policy is a blunt instrument, the infection levels are lower in the Spanish Islands :dash::dash:

Country has been demanding expediency, they now have it and we are still whinging:lol:
For some countries that locked down quickly cases are now rising again. Hong Kong had their first peak towards the end of March and squashed it but now cases are twice as high. Same for Australia (interesting as they are now in the middle of their winter) Israel had their first peak early April and squashed it but now cases are about 2,000 a day, three times ours but for a country with only 9m people so would equate to about 15,000 a day for us! (we are < 700/day at the moment)
 
For some countries that locked down quickly cases are now rising again. Hong Kong had their first peak towards the end of March and squashed it but now cases are twice as high. Same for Australia (interesting as they are now in the middle of their winter) Israel had their first peak early April and squashed it but now cases are about 2,000 a day, three times ours but for a country with only 9m people so would equate to about 15,000 a day for us! (we are < 700/day at the moment)
Another country insisting UK nationals isolate is ROI and folk are whinging over Spain. Government did the right thing in my opinion. People have been demanding clarity and expediency, government has just done that and we’re whinging:lol:
 
For some countries that locked down quickly cases are now rising again. Hong Kong had their first peak towards the end of March and squashed it but now cases are twice as high. Same for Australia (interesting as they are now in the middle of their winter) Israel had their first peak early April and squashed it but now cases are about 2,000 a day, three times ours but for a country with only 9m people so would equate to about 15,000 a day for us! (we are < 700/day at the moment)
This is a worrying trend. Seems like cases are rising in countries which released their lockdown and tried to get back to some sort of normal - like we are now doing.
Likely we will be the same...
 
My concerns are for the wellbeing of my family and friends, the future of the great town I live in (very mych hospitality focused), how we are going to pay for the debt we now have as a country and the mass unemployment that will occur.
Also how many years is this likely to go on for.
The furthest thing from my mind is - can I go abroad for a holiday!!
 
Spain actually opened venues like nightclubs, I don’t think we’ll be nightclubbing till next year, at the earliest:D
Instead "more people are going to be punting/whoring from this week on" if @Hotpot has got the assumption in her "X" OP right (which I fear she has). Given that the NHS's Advice for people who sell sex states, what is blindingly obvious to me, that "Having sex or close contact with anyone except for a sexual partner that lives in your household, puts you at high risk of catching or passing on COVID-19 to other members of the public.", I find that prospect pretty depressing and a kick in the teeth for the majority of the population who are making major personal sacrifices to try to prevent the spread of the infection.
 
No comment needed:
I will C&P it though.

Facebook has removed a video posted by Breitbart News earlier today, which was the top-performing Facebook post in the world Monday afternoon, of a press conference in D.C. held by the group America’s Frontline Doctors and organized and sponsored by the Tea Party Patriots. The press conference featured Rep. Ralph Norman (R-SC) and frontline doctors sharing their views and opinions on coronavirus and the medical response to the pandemic. YouTube (which is owned by Google) and Twitter subsequently removed footage of the press conference as well.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020...rs-capitol-hill-coronavirus-press-conference/
 
Its been brushed under the carpet a bit - mainly I suspect to avoid any criticism of the NHS but why is our COVID death rate per 100 cases the highest in the world ?

Its almost almost twice that of Spain and 5 times that of USA in fact almost more than double that of any other developed nation Its even 4 times that of Brazil and SIX times that of India

While Spain may be going through a new peak in infections they have had 200 deaths in a month (from June 23-jul 23rd) we had 119 DEATHS TODAY

Now I realise we may be counting cases differently etc but these aren't a few % here or there these figures are truly alarming

Quite simply if you get COVID then your chances of survival are higher anywhere outside the UK

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
 
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UK government puts a blanket quarantine on those arriving from Spain and the ”doomsters” are whinging , that the blanket policy is a blunt instrument, the infection levels are lower in the Spanish Islands :dash::dash:

Country has been demanding expediency, they now have it and we are still whinging:lol:
I agree with the blanket policy. Between January and March we were only asking people travelling back from Wuhan and certain hotspot towns, cities and regions in Italy to self isolate (and I bet most didn't bother).

That policy was a disaster. We now know the virus is always days, maybe even weeks, ahead of where local authorities think it is due to the incubation period, asymptomatic spreaders and people travelling around.
 
No comment needed:
I will C&P it though.

Facebook has removed a video posted by Breitbart News earlier today, which was the top-performing Facebook post in the world Monday afternoon, of a press conference in D.C. held by the group America’s Frontline Doctors and organized and sponsored by the Tea Party Patriots. The press conference featured Rep. Ralph Norman (R-SC) and frontline doctors sharing their views and opinions on coronavirus and the medical response to the pandemic. YouTube (which is owned by Google) and Twitter subsequently removed footage of the press conference as well.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020...rs-capitol-hill-coronavirus-press-conference/
Received that video twice yesterday from friends. Interesting facebook say it’s false, but don’t say what they said that is false:unknown:
 
Its been brushed under the carpet a bit - mainly I suspect to avoid any criticism of the NHS but why is our COVID death rate per 100 cases the highest in the world ?

Its almost almost twice that of Spain and 5 times that of USA in fact almost more than double that of any other developed nation Its even 4 times that of Brazil and SIX times that of India

While Spain may be going through a new peak in infections they have had 200 deaths in a month (from June 23-jul 23rd) we had 119 DEATHS TODAY

Now I realise we may be counting cases differently etc but these aren't a few % here or there these figures are truly alarming

Quite simply if you get COVID then your chances of survival are higher anywhere outside the UK

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
UK death figures are a mess, as when they are released, many haven’t actually died on that day, Some have actually died weeks ago. The best way to see an accurate daily fatality is the ONS website, that have a graph/chart of actual day of death chart. I’m not sure how different it is, from your source.
 
What type of idiot goes on holiday during a pandemic?

Typical British common sense, once again.
Grant Shapps

This is unbelievable. The thick twat knew the quarantine rule was coming for Spain and went anyway.:crazy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ronavirus-infections-quarantine-a9640451.html

Actually, what happened is that Shapps knew on Friday that it was almost certain that come Saturday it would be announced he would be subject to quarantine, but proceeded with the family holiday anyway, because it would have been “wrong to act on privileged information”.

The Shapps defence is that it can’t be one rule for one and another for another. It’s not for a transport secretary to encourage people to go on holiday to Spain one day, then bail himself the next, because he knows what’s coming when they don’t.
 
Grant Shapps

This is unbelievable. The thick twat knew the quarantine rule was coming for Spain and went anyway.:crazy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ronavirus-infections-quarantine-a9640451.html

Actually, what happened is that Shapps knew on Friday that it was almost certain that come Saturday it would be announced he would be subject to quarantine, but proceeded with the family holiday anyway, because it would have been “wrong to act on privileged information”.

The Shapps defence is that it can’t be one rule for one and another for another. It’s not for a transport secretary to encourage people to go on holiday to Spain one day, then bail himself the next, because he knows what’s coming when they don’t.
Shapps can just get Michael Green to cover for him :thumbsup:
 
Grant Shapps

This is unbelievable. The thick twat knew the quarantine rule was coming for Spain and went anyway.:crazy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ronavirus-infections-quarantine-a9640451.html

Actually, what happened is that Shapps knew on Friday that it was almost certain that come Saturday it would be announced he would be subject to quarantine, but proceeded with the family holiday anyway, because it would have been “wrong to act on privileged information”.

The Shapps defence is that it can’t be one rule for one and another for another. It’s not for a transport secretary to encourage people to go on holiday to Spain one day, then bail himself the next, because he knows what’s coming when they don’t.
There is still a lot of chatter that Shapps was set up and they let him go onnholoday thinking he would be ok. That is a top office prank if so. Makes all mine look pathetic.
 
Grant Shapps

This is unbelievable. The thick twat knew the quarantine rule was coming for Spain and went anyway.:crazy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ronavirus-infections-quarantine-a9640451.html

Actually, what happened is that Shapps knew on Friday that it was almost certain that come Saturday it would be announced he would be subject to quarantine, but proceeded with the family holiday anyway, because it would have been “wrong to act on privileged information”.

The Shapps defence is that it can’t be one rule for one and another for another. It’s not for a transport secretary to encourage people to go on holiday to Spain one day, then bail himself the next, because he knows what’s coming when they don’t.
This story comes across as vague at best. What does the highlighted part mean exactly?

My understanding is, the data for Spain was received on Friday. Also other ministers have stated Shapps attended the meeting regarding the quarantine remotely. Remotely from where? Home in the UK? Or from Spain? If Shapps had flown out to Spain on Friday? Is that why he joined the meeting remotely? If so, he almost certainly wasn’t aware of what the outcome would be, as it would be a cabinet/PM decision.

wrong to act on privileged information “ used in the story is out of context, as I saw the interview when Shapps said that. He was asked; If he knew there was going to be a quarantine would have still travelled? To which he replied it would be “wrong to act on privileged information “ . The story is partly made up.
 
Grant Shapps

This is unbelievable. The thick twat knew the quarantine rule was coming for Spain and went anyway.:crazy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ronavirus-infections-quarantine-a9640451.html

Actually, what happened is that Shapps knew on Friday that it was almost certain that come Saturday it would be announced he would be subject to quarantine, but proceeded with the family holiday anyway, because it would have been “wrong to act on privileged information”.

The Shapps defence is that it can’t be one rule for one and another for another. It’s not for a transport secretary to encourage people to go on holiday to Spain one day, then bail himself the next, because he knows what’s coming when they don’t.
Shapps is a man of principle. Let's hope his wife knew about and agreed to his decision.:scare:
 
Grant Shapps

This is unbelievable. The thick twat knew the quarantine rule was coming for Spain and went anyway.:crazy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ronavirus-infections-quarantine-a9640451.html

Actually, what happened is that Shapps knew on Friday that it was almost certain that come Saturday it would be announced he would be subject to quarantine, but proceeded with the family holiday anyway, because it would have been “wrong to act on privileged information”.

The Shapps defence is that it can’t be one rule for one and another for another. It’s not for a transport secretary to encourage people to go on holiday to Spain one day, then bail himself the next, because he knows what’s coming when they don’t.
Part of me thinks he volunteered to do it to try and restore some faith that the government follow their own rules.
 
Received that video twice yesterday from friends. Interesting facebook say it’s false, but don’t say what they said that is false:unknown:
I read it's the promoting HCQ as a cure which goes against the WHO and CDC position on it.

Dr. Simone Gold is as Republican as they come. This briefing by America's Frontline Doctors, a group she founded that includes anti-vaxxers, was sponsored by the Tea Party Patriots and is in line with what Trump spoke about broadcasting before; pro-Trump doctors evangelising his miracle cure.

Big tech wants Trump gone so she could be telling the truth but US social media moderators would still be tapping Delete on this.
 
I read it's the promoting HCQ as a cure which goes against the WHO and CDC position on it.

Dr. Simone Gold is as Republican as they come. This briefing by America's Frontline Doctors, a group she founded that includes anti-vaxxers, was sponsored by the Tea Party Patriots and is in line with what Trump spoke about broadcasting before; pro-Trump doctors evangelising his miracle cure.

Big tech wants Trump gone so she could be telling the truth but US social media moderators would still be tapping Delete on this.
I get all that, however one Doctor claimed she had treated 350 patients with CV19, using the medication without fatality. To show it’s all false, you’d think their data/patients would be investigated and proven false or inaccurate? Saying something is false without examining their claims, to show the falsehood, is a bit questionable. That’s not how science works, they should peer review their claims.
 
I get all that, however one Doctor claimed she had treated 350 patients with CV19, using the medication without fatality. To show it’s all false, you’d think their data/patients would be investigated and proven false or inaccurate? Saying something is false without examining their claims, to show the falsehood, is a bit questionable. That’s not how science works, they should peer review their claims.
No how false news works... if facebook hasny deleted... it must be true..?...:sarcastic:
 
I get all that, however one Doctor claimed she had treated 350 patients with CV19, using the medication without fatality. To show it’s all false, you’d think their data/patients would be investigated and proven false or inaccurate? Saying something is false without examining their claims, to show the falsehood, is a bit questionable. That’s not how science works, they should peer review their claims.
Exactly. Publish the findings, let the medical world see the data. They know that's what they should do if it were true instead of eulogising about anecdotes in front of the cameras just like Trump does. :rolleyes:
 
But could it be true? The 350 patient thing I mean?
Who Knows:unknown:


Exactly. Publish the findings, let the medical world see the data. They know that's what they should do if it were true instead of eulogising about anecdotes in front of the cameras just like Trump does. :rolleyes:
Exactly. However have those claiming it’s not true, asked for the data to examine before claiming falsehood? The fact is, both sides of this debate, have a lot to gain financially and otherwise. If what they say is true, the Pharma industry will lose financially and we know how governments are pumping them with million/billions at the moment.
 
Exactly. However have those claiming it’s not true, asked for the data to examine before claiming falsehood? The fact is, both sides of this debate, have a lot to gain financially and otherwise. If what they say is true, the Pharma industry will lose financially and we know how governments are pumping them with million/billions at the moment.
Dr Stella Immanuel doesn't just believe in HCQ for COVID though, she's alleged to also believes in alien DNA in medicine, that a race of reptilians run the government and genital warts come from having sex with demons while we sleep. She's so woke! :lol:

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/07/29/stella-immanuel-alien-dna/
 
Dr Stella Immanuel doesn't just believe in HCQ for COVID though, she's alleged to also believes in alien DNA in medicine, that a race of reptilians run the government and genital warts come from having sex with demons while we sleep. She's so woke! :lol:

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/07/29/stella-immanuel-alien-dna/
I’m neutral in this debate. My point is those refuting these claims, should peer review the findings and debunk it. Just saying it’s fake news like Trump, doesn’t mean it is really fake news.
 
Government are saying by all means go on holiday to Europe but be aware we may impose quarantine restrictions at any time.

Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon says the safest holiday you can have is to stay in Scotland (or in the UK) and give the economy a boost at the same time.

For once I agree with NS.
My view is , if you really really really, feel the need to go on holiday in a pandemic. Make sure you have good travel insurance and that you can afford 14 days quarantine. It’s not rocket science really:D
 
given that 14 day cumulative COVID deaths for UK, Spain and Italy are 1.4, 0 and 0.2 per 100,00 It would seem that they are safer places to be


it will take time for infections to become deaths Spain did have 49 cases per 100,000 compared to the UKs 14 but they do seem to be much better at treating people with COVID
 
Government are saying by all means go on holiday to Europe but be aware we may impose quarantine restrictions at any time.

Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon says the safest holiday you can have is to stay in Scotland (or in the UK) and give the economy a boost at the same time.

For once I agree with NS.
A friend of mine (who lost a lot of income during the more intense period of lockdown) is going to France for a week from tomorrow... He's usually quite sensible. Personally, I'd have no faith in our government not to surprise quarantine any country.

It's funny when you compare all covid figures that Boris is blaming the rest of Europe for a incoming second wave... I suppose being anti Europe is the only card he can play.
 
given that 14 day cumulative COVID deaths for UK, Spain and Italy are 1.4, 0 and 0.2 per 100,00 It would seem that they are safer places to be


it will take time for infections to become deaths Spain did have 49 cases per 100,000 compared to the UKs 14 but they do seem to be much better at treating people with COVID
Spain had a more serious lockdown than the UK.
 
A friend of mine (who lost a lot of income during the more intense period of lockdown) is going to France for a week from tomorrow... He's usually quite sensible. Personally, I'd have no faith in our government not to surprise quarantine any country.

It's funny when you compare all covid figures that Boris is blaming the rest of Europe for a incoming second wave... I suppose being anti Europe is the only card he can play.
Think it’s more to do with, the strain of the virus that led to lockdown, came mainly from Europe not China, I read some where.
 
A friend of mine (who lost a lot of income during the more intense period of lockdown) is going to France for a week from tomorrow... He's usually quite sensible. Personally, I'd have no faith in our government not to surprise quarantine any country.

It's funny when you compare all covid figures that Boris is blaming the rest of Europe for a incoming second wave... I suppose being anti Europe is the only card he can play.
I hope holidaying Brits aren't being the ones taking the virus back into Europe.
 
The fact I have to breath the same air in a plane, where there maybe several asymptomatic people, means I won’t be flying anywhere for awhile:scare:
Exactly. The holiday wouldn't bother me at all. The UK is not safer than Spain. The flights there and back are the risk. Unless you had firefighter level breathing apparatus or a private jet with tests for all, I not leaving the country for the foreseeable. Potentially, not leaving the county.
 
Its been brushed under the carpet a bit - mainly I suspect to avoid any criticism of the NHS but why is our COVID death rate per 100 cases the highest in the world ?

Its almost almost twice that of Spain and 5 times that of USA in fact almost more than double that of any other developed nation Its even 4 times that of Brazil and SIX times that of India

While Spain may be going through a new peak in infections they have had 200 deaths in a month (from June 23-jul 23rd) we had 119 DEATHS TODAY

Now I realise we may be counting cases differently etc but these aren't a few % here or there these figures are truly alarming

Quite simply if you get COVID then your chances of survival are higher anywhere outside the UK

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
Different countries adopted different ways of attributing deaths to CV-19.

A substantial number of UK deaths attributed to CV-19 were in care homes rather than hospitals.

This also highlights some differences in demographics between countries.

The overall statistic is stark but the alarming aspect relates to policy rather that NHS treatment.
 
Exactly. The holiday wouldn't bother me at all. The UK is not safer than Spain. The flights there and back are the risk. Unless you had firefighter level breathing apparatus or a private jet with tests for all, I not leaving the country for the foreseeable. Potentially, not leaving the county.
Agreed - its no coincidence that Eurotunnel did great business as soon as the travel restrictions were relaxed
 
Different countries adopted different ways of attributing deaths to CV-19.

A substantial number of UK deaths attributed to CV-19 were in care homes rather than hospitals.

This also highlights some differences in demographics between countries.

The overall statistic is stark but the alarming aspect relates to policy rather that NHS treatment.
I did note that there are differences in counting between countries but not enough to account for these huge differences, there is also this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...iation-in-covid-19-death-rates-across-england

which just covers Hospital deaths

apparently death rates of COVID patients in NHS hospital trusts varies from 12-80% - thats a tremendous variation but even the best ones are still the highest in the world
 
I did note that there are differences in counting between countries but not enough to account for these huge differences, there is also this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...iation-in-covid-19-death-rates-across-england

which just covers Hospital deaths

apparently death rates of COVID patients in NHS hospital trusts varies from 12-80% - thats a tremendous variation but even the best ones are still the highest in the world
The Guardian article is specific to England and doesn't offer international comparisons.

It also highlights regional demographics as the primary cause and explicitly cautions against attributing deaths to the quality of healthcare. When treating people with multiple risk factors and comorbidities, it's unsurprising that a higher proportion will die.

Reference to simple percentages without multifactorial context can be very misleading.

That said, I'm in one of the apparently best performing Trusts anyway.
 
The Guardian article is specific to England and doesn't offer international comparisons.

It also highlights regional demographics as the primary cause and explicitly cautions against attributing deaths to the quality of healthcare. When treating people with multiple risk factors and comorbidities, it's unsurprising that a higher proportion will die.

Reference to simple percentages without multifactorial context can be very misleading.

That said, I'm in one of the apparently best performing Trusts anyway.
No it doesnt offer international comparisons but as you claimed that our figure of 15% was higher because other countries are not not counting care home deaths so I produced hospital only deaths AND EVEN THE BEST IS HIGHER THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY
Every singe hospital in the world has patients with comorbidities

and yes you are right there may well be other factors but we arent talking an odd percentage point here or there and it doesnt appear that anyone is looking at these figures
 
No it doesnt offer international comparisons but as you claimed that our figure of 15% was higher because other countries are not not counting care home deaths so I produced hospital only deaths AND EVEN THE BEST IS HIGHER THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY
Every singe hospital in the world has patients with comorbidities

and yes you are right there may well be other factors but we arent talking an odd percentage point here or there and it doesnt appear that anyone is looking at these figures
I think we read and interpret data in very different ways :hi:

It's clear that the UK has had one of the worst death rates, but that's primarily due to the way government managed this crisis. The NHS has offered and adapted the best available treatments.
 
I think we read and interpret data in very different ways :hi:

It's clear that the UK has had one of the worst death rates, but that's primarily due to the way government managed this crisis. The NHS has offered and adapted the best available treatments.
To be fair, the government had no warning at all about covid.

Now, if two countries (say... Italy and Spain, for example) been ahead of the UK in this crisis and had provided a categoric example that a serious lockdown was required... Well, that would be quite different.

Also, Boris needed more information. Its not his fault.

However, if he was on part hours as PM of this country and demanding only two page summaries of the affairs of this country whilst avoiding Cobra meetings... Well, that would be quite different as well.
 
I think we read and interpret data in very different ways :hi:

It's clear that the UK has had one of the worst death rates, but that's primarily due to the way government managed this crisis. The NHS has offered and adapted the best available treatments.
You could probably imagine, that with the expertise, financial resources and high numbers of cases to learn from, that the treatment is rapidly becoming very good in uk. I did say this plenty of months back, but should a vaccine never appear, treatment procedures and learning (e.g. keeping patients hydrated, rather than dehydration leading to kidney failure and then death), the virus becomes less of a fearsome prospect.
 
You could probably imagine, that with the expertise, financial resources and high numbers of cases to learn from, that the treatment is rapidly becoming very good in uk. I did say this plenty of months back, but should a vaccine never appear, treatment procedures and learning (e.g. keeping patients hydrated, rather than dehydration leading to kidney failure and then death), the virus becomes less of a fearsome prospect.
Indeed, and we've improved by understanding complexities of CV-19 and improving how we target specific risk factors and presentations.

Simple percentages inform nothing. They don't even differentiate different forms of health care provision ie free at the point of need vrs health care insurance. Then population level factors like proportion of elderly. Then individual risk factors comorbidities, etc.
 
I think we read and interpret data in very different ways :hi:

It's clear that the UK has had one of the worst death rates, but that's primarily due to the way government managed this crisis. The NHS has offered and adapted the best available treatments.
Here the NHS withdrew 'services' altogether before the 'lockdown'. That's still the case. It has left people to deal with things themselves and hasn't offered any 'treatments'.

Perhaps it's different where you are but here 'services' have been and still are non existent.
 
I think we read and interpret data in very different ways :hi:

It's clear that the UK has had one of the worst death rates, but that's primarily due to the way government managed this crisis. The NHS has offered and adapted the best available treatments.
So how do you interpret the figures other than to say we have the worst COVID survival record in the world ?

Our NHS hospital death rates are far too high there is no doubt about this You might be able to shade a few % points due to different counting but not the many 100s of % in these figures

I've spent my life in medicine dealing with figures and I've rarely seen any showing such a huge difference
We are spending millions investigating why UK BAME deaths are 10-50% higher yet nothing into why UK death rates are 400% of Spain's or Italy's. Yet we were told that their health services were overwhelmed while we "stayed home and saved the NHS"

The politicians will try and wriggle out of these figures and the various NHS quangos (of which there are far too many) will use it to call for more money.
 
Here the NHS withdrew 'services' altogether before the 'lockdown'. That's still the case. It has left people to deal with things themselves and hasn't offered any 'treatments'.

Perhaps it's different where you are but here 'services' have been and still are non existent.
I assume you mean withdraw of general services?

The modelling certainly resulted in an NHS response that was CV-19 centric to the detriment of other conditions / services. That's slowly reversing, although the possibility of further spikes in infection rates is a significant issue in planning this.

Where I am we've been able to reorganise into "dirty" CV-19 and "clean" general hospitals. However, resources have been diverted into CV-19.
 
So how do you interpret the figures other than to say we have the worst COVID survival record in the world ?

Our NHS hospital death rates are far too high there is no doubt about this You might be able to shade a few % points due to different counting but not the many 100s of % in these figures

I've spent my life in medicine dealing with figures and I've rarely seen any showing such a huge difference
We are spending millions investigating why UK BAME deaths are 10-50% higher yet nothing into why UK death rates are 400% of Spain's or Italy's. Yet we were told that their health services were overwhelmed while we "stayed home and saved the NHS"

The politicians will try and wriggle out of these figures and the various NHS quangos (of which there are far too many) will use it to call for more money.
Stats like that, don’t indicate what the intervening variables might have been.

UKE football team may have the worst defensive record, in their league, doesn’t tell you their first team defenders suffered injuries and suspensions that kept them out all season. Or they had to play most of the season with their 3rd choice goal keeper.
 
Stats like that, don’t indicate what the intervening variables might have been.

UKE football team may have the worst defensive record, in their league, doesn’t tell you their first team defenders suffered injuries and suspensions that kept them out all season. Or they had to play most of the season with their 3rd choice goal keeper.
Maybe they should have picked me. Player/manager, automatic taker of all free kicks and penalties.
 
So how do you interpret the figures other than to say we have the worst COVID survival record in the world ?

Our NHS hospital death rates are far too high there is no doubt about this You might be able to shade a few % points due to different counting but not the many 100s of % in these figures

I've spent my life in medicine dealing with figures and I've rarely seen any showing such a huge difference
We are spending millions investigating why UK BAME deaths are 10-50% higher yet nothing into why UK death rates are 400% of Spain's or Italy's. Yet we were told that their health services were overwhelmed while we "stayed home and saved the NHS"

The politicians will try and wriggle out of these figures and the various NHS quangos (of which there are far too many) will use it to call for more money.
You're obsessed by percentages! They are descriptive statistics and explain very little. If your background is as you state then you should know this.

Understanding will require a far more complex analysis, and one free of the biases introduced by political shenanigans eg in the ways deaths are recorded, etc.

I've spoken with people I know who work in Italy, Spain, USA, etc in medicine and the picture I've discerned is different to figures you quote.
 
I assume you mean withdraw of general services?

The modelling certainly resulted in an NHS response that was CV-19 centric to the detriment of other conditions / services. That's slowly reversing, although the possibility of further spikes in infection rates is a significant issue in planning this.

Where I am we've been able to reorganise into "dirty" CV-19 and "clean" general hospitals. However, resources have been diverted into CV-19.
All services were withdrawn. If you wanted to see a doctor you'd have to do so privately.
 
The nhs, so great that can lose a person's antibodies test results.
Then inform the said person that they have no record of the test being carried out:scare:

Interestingly this person works for the nhs and can have this verified under an internal compliant.

Just stick with you lost the results ffs
 
You're obsessed by percentages! They are descriptive statistics and explain very little. If your background is as you state then you should know this.

Understanding will require a far more complex analysis, and one free of the biases introduced by political shenanigans eg in the ways deaths are recorded, etc.

I've spoken with people I know who work in Italy, Spain, USA, etc in medicine and the picture I've discerned is different to figures you quote.

No Im not obsessed with % and I'm just quoting actual figures not what some friends have told me ! Show me some figures not hearsay !

if you dont like % (or dont understand try it this way of the last 1000 people taken into English hospitals with COVID 153 died in Spain only 41 died thats 114 extra deaths !

raw numbers are much more misleading USA has more deaths than us - but of course there are a lot more Americans

I would love to have raw figures (and population demographics, collection methods etc) and do my own analysis but I dont have them.

I was going to say the figure quoted aren't perfect but they are a million times better than yours but then you haven't quoted any - you aren't Donald Trump in disguise are you ?
 
No Im not obsessed with % and I'm just quoting actual figures not what some friends have told me ! Show me some figures not hearsay !

if you dont like % (or dont understand try it this way of the last 1000 people taken into English hospitals with COVID 153 died in Spain only 41 died thats 114 extra deaths !

raw numbers are much more misleading USA has more deaths than us - but of course there are a lot more Americans

I would love to have raw figures (and population demographics, collection methods etc) and do my own analysis but I dont have them.

I was going to say the figure quoted aren't perfect but they are a million times better than yours but then you haven't quoted any - you aren't Donald Trump in disguise are you ?
You know you're losing a debate when you resort to the last bit! A defensive response to conceal the absence of anything substantial.

This is very basic. You were intent on making statements about causality from percentages. You don't seem to know why that's infeasible, and you continue to pursue it. I don't need to make silly comments or insults, but it's nonsensical.

I welcome and will make use of proper data and analysis. If you present something of substance I'll consider it. When decent studies are published they will influence and guide practice.
 
You know you're losing a debate when you resort to the last bit! A defensive response to conceal the absence of anything substantial.

This is very basic. You were intent on making statements about causality from percentages. You don't seem to know why that's infeasible, and you continue to pursue it. I don't need to make silly comments or insults, but it's nonsensical.

I welcome and will make use of proper data and analysis. If you present something of substance I'll consider it. When decent studies are published they will influence and guide practice.
1)I made no statements about causality from percentages
2) I have presented lots of figures - you have presented the opinion of a few friends - if thats not true then show me what you have quoted a source ?
3) I have NEVER made any statements about causality - I've just posted links to figures.
4) Unlike you I haven't commented in whether its the NHS or the Governments fault.

So I'll continue to be polite

PUT UP (some numbers) OR SHUT UP
 
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